How many people in world cricket have been as consistent as Virat Kohli? We don’t give him enough credit: Anjum Chopra

Is there an overdose of international cricket? Is there an overdose also of ICC events these days? If your answer to these questions is yes, you are not the only one. However, someone who is not part of cricket crazy Asia might have a different view. That is what former India cricket captain Anjum Chopra feels.

Anjum, who was the first Indian woman to notch up 1000 ODI runs is one of the stalwarts of Indian cricket and is also a well-known cricket commentator and expert.

Anjum spoke to me on a wide range of topics, ranging from a World Cup in the USA to key members of the Indian team like Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma, Rishabh Pant and Hardik Pandya, the upcoming India vs Pakistan clash in New York, the possibility of Gautam Gambhir becoming the next India men’s Head coach and more.

Excerpts:

You have played so much cricket yourself, you’ve been an India captain – Did you ever imagine a cricket world cup being played in the USA?

No, I never imagined that (laughs). I never associated New York with cricket. I always thought of baseball and other sports which are played there. When you think about New York, you think of the ‘Big Apple’, a corporate world, then the shopping and sightseeing, but cricket never came to mind (in the context of New York). Never thought that we would be talking about cricket being held in the US. Cricket is played globally, maybe at a very small level (in some countries), but it is played the world over. But for us to be in an era where an ICC Men’s Cricket World Cup is being held in the US – I didn’t think that it was going to happen so soon.

For us, growing up, the World Cup had a certain charm and part of the reason for that charm was that we had to wait four years for it (ODI). The T20 World Cup is generally held every two years – is this a testament to how popular the format is or is it also a way to nudge the public to take to T20 cricket more, you think…

We are not in 2009 or 2012, we are in 2024. So possibly when this whole thing was planned and started there might have been a thought that T20 cricket is here to stay and the more we play, the better it will become, the globalisation of the sport will happen etc, which has actually happened, even T10 has come about. At that time, I think it was about globalisation of the game, to take cricket to every nook and corner.  Right now, with more of these leagues that have come up, the charm or the feel that – ‘oh now we have the world cup coming up once every four years’ – that has gone. I think the freshness of the product has reduced. I don’t think it has gone away, but it has reduced. Especially when it happens after such a massive tournament like the IPL, which it has to happen – whether in the UK or the US or anywhere else – that time you might feel like – ‘why do we need to play this, we just played it two years ago’, but if we look at 2022 which happened in Australia and now we look at 2024 – we could say – ‘oh it happened two years ago, oh two years have gone past, so fast?’ But because we think according to T20s – because IPL just happened and because of other leagues around the world – that charm of watching the World Cup has reduced. But I don’t think it is to nudge the public, I think cricket is a followed sport and the leagues will not go away, so the ICC could even look at changing the T20 World Cup scheduling to (every) four years. Now, every year ICC conducts at least one ICC event – whether it’s a u-19 Men’s or Women’s World Cup, or T20 Men’s or Women’s World Cup or a 50 over Men’s or Women’s World Cup or a World Test Championship. Now, between June and October there will be two events, next year will be a u-19 (Women’s T20 World Cup in 2025). I am sure they (ICC) will take a step back and assess and re-assess and ask – ‘is there an overdose or not?’

The ongoing T20 World Cup has as many as 20 teams. The ICC has announced that this will be the same for the editions in 2026, 2028 and 2030 for the men’s tournaments. This of course means the inclusion of multiple ‘minnow’ teams. Your take on whether this dilutes the competition and adds to the cricket overdose or is it good for cricket overall so a good step forward?

ICC’s vision is to expand the game to a global audience. That is part of the mission statement. If you have to globalise the sport, then you have to offer the minnows something to look forward to, something they can qualify for. Like, Oman qualified for the T20 World Cup (2024). Last time they couldn’t qualify in 2022 and before that in 2021 they were co-hosts. So, to encourage them to keep playing the sport, you have to give them an incentive. So, when you see so many teams it’s because they (minnow teams) have hung in there to consciously improve, so while they might today like minnows, they can give a lot of competition to other teams also. So, while we look at the fact that globalisation is essential, today if we say that we are diluting the property, I think that will be unfair, because these nations are investing in the sport and ICC is investing in them to remain invested in the game. How many times will the West Indies be knocked out (not qualify) for the 50 over World Cup and how many times will Bangladesh or Sri Lanka get knocked out? (for minnows to take their place). Very rarely. But for that rare moment players should remain invested – that becomes difficult. So, yes, it’s a long tournament, but at the same time I think for ICC to think that they want to globalise the sport and not open their doors, that is very difficult. So many players of Asian descent have shifted to those (minnow) nations. Today, these players who didn’t get a chance in their own nations are representing other nations. For example, Unmukt Chand could have actually made it to the US team, but he didn’t, but at least there was an opportunity. For David Wiese (South African born Namibian cricketer), for (Roelof Erasmus) van der Merwe (Dutch-South African cricketer), there are so many. So, I think when you are globalising the game you have to open your doors. You can’t be rigid and restrictive. When we say that there is an overdose, it’s because we have seen the game for the last 30-40-50 years. And the game existed well before that. So, for us it might be an overdose, but for people who made it to a World Cup – now they are getting the chance to have an ICC logo on their jerseys, to go out there and stand for their National Anthem – it’s a big thing. I think only people from Asia would feel that there is too much cricket happening, because there is always cricket happening. There is a Chhattisgarh Premier League, a Patna Premier League happening, there is just so much of cricket happening.

Your take on the Indian squad that was picked. For ICC events only a squad of 15 can be picked, so selectors always have a tough time, especially perhaps for the Indian selectors, because there is just a plethora of T20 talent available now. What was your first reaction when you saw the squad?

So, the squad was announced during the IPL and for about 3-4 days (before squad announcement) we were discussing it constantly in the commentary box, off-air, as to who should be there, who might be there and everyone was giving their predictions and one clear name that was coming out was that of Shivam Dube. When the squad came out it was not like I was unhappy with the squad. At the end of the day, it was pretty much expected that at least about 13-14 of them would select themselves. The only thing I felt was that it was difficult for Rinku Singh to miss out and I didn’t think that that was fair to him. But then we have all played the game, we have all covered the game and we know that somethings are unfair but they do happen. Dube comes in because of his fast-bowling ability and he was in form and he did well in the Afghanistan series as well, last winter, so not that he didn’t deserve (to be in the squad), but I didn’t think that Rinku Singh didn’t deserve to be there, so my first thought was – ‘why is Rinku not in the team?’. While I was unhappy that Rinku wasn’t there, I was very pleased to see Yuzvendra Chahal there. And Axar Patel. Axar would have probably made it (anyway), but the surety is only there when your name comes out. I was very pleased to see Yuzvendra Chahal’s name, because I think he is a quality bowler, he missed out in a couple of years, not being a part of the team.

Would it be fair to say that you expected Rinku Singh to be in the main 15 and perhaps Shivam Dube in the reserves? 

I in fact didn’t sit down and make my 15 to be honest. I didn’t think that they will take four spinners, but everyone selects themselves – Kuldeep, yes, Axar, Jadeja and Chahal – all four select themselves. I didn’t sit down and make a list of 15, but in that first instance when Rinku’s name wasn’t there, I felt like – ‘why?’ And I don’t think Ajit (Agarkar) gave any statement or any of the other selectors gave any statement. It was probably because of his fast-bowling ability (Dube’s). I didn’t hear that press conference by Rohit (Sharma) and Ajit (Agarkar), but the next day it came out in the media that they preferred him (Dube) because of his bowling abilities and Rohit (Sharma) of course would have been a part of those discussions. So that seemed fair.

Over the years the IPL has become a benchmark for selection. When it comes to Rinku this season, KKR didn’ really need him because their top and middle orders did so well, so he couldn’t show the form he is in. In the recent past he has been in great form for India, averaging 89 in T20Is. Shivam on the other hand could show his form for CSK. I felt it was unfair to Rinku that way…

(During the IPL) we would discuss – ‘yeh Rinku kahan hain bhai?’ (where is Rinku?). I got to cover 2-3 KKR matches and Rinku didn’t bat in those games. Last year (2023) when I went to Kolkata to cover a KKR match, Rinku almost took the team to victory against LSG (KKR lost by 1 run) and that was after his 48 run heroics (vs GT where he hit 5 sixes in a row), so this year was like – ‘KKR usko batting kyon nahin karwa rahein?’ (why isn’t Rinku coming out to bat?). But to be fair_, usko kahan batting karwayein_? (where could he have possibly batted?). See again – kaptaan (Rohit Sharma) se upar kuch nahin (no one is above the captain). Kaptaan ne bol diya yeh chahiye to yeh chahiye (if the captain says he wants a certain player then chances are he will be picked). Selectors don’t only look at present form, they also look at the past. It’s nice that Rinku is travelling with the team. If he stayed in India and watched the matches, it would have been difficult for him. Over there at least he is with the team. If this helps him as an exposure (trip) and he comes back and is a part of the next tournament India play, if he is able to utilise this chance, it’s very good for India eventually.

A word now on Rishabh Pant. It’s so good to see him back. He showed glimpses of his old self in the last IPL. Before the unfortunate accident he was at the top of his game. Kudos to him to be back this way after such a horrendous event. Going by the Bangladesh warm-up match and the match vs Ireland he is clearly the first-choice wicket-keeper. Your take on this Rishabh that we are seeing…

I think he (Rishabh Pant) also realises that he has missed out on 18 months of cricket. What he went through, from the time the incident happened till the time he started walking – that would have been so dreadful. Being on the bed, lying down and thinking what happened and why and will I? You know, the questions come up. So, for a player or a young kid to go through that, it wouldn’t have been easy. Neither for him, nor for his family. So, for me I think he realises that he has missed 18 months of cricket, 18 months of life and for him every game is important. It’s not like – ‘I must do well’, it’s more like ‘I want to do well’. So, you look at things from a different perspective. It’s not about gaining or losing. It’s about being there and enjoying every moment, which he missed for 18 months. And he as a player and as an individual will enjoy being there as a part of the Indian team, being there as a match-winner for India, being there as a contributor for India and that is his drive. He told the physio – ‘you give me a date’. He (the physio) said two years. So, he (Rishabh) said ‘ok. I will minus 6 months from that’. He has actually come back to playing cricket while people around him thought he will take at least a couple of months more. Fortunately, because he is young, his body could take the load and come out of it. (in the warm-up match vs Bangladesh) he played a shot over short fine leg. He didn’t even look, he just played that flick and he didn’t even look because he knew that he had connected it so well, it will go over the short fine leg fielder to the boundary. What I see of Rishabh now, because I have seen him from when he was in Sonnet club (in Delhi) – it’s not just about playing for India, it’s about enjoying every moment of him being on that field and bringing success and glory to his team by being there as a match-winner. Whether he is keeping, whether he is giving a suggestion or batting – it’s just about being there in that moment. He knows that his inputs are valuable, how he led the Delhi Capitals and with every outing he was only getting better. It wouldn’t have happened without the hard work, but along with that he understands that he has lost those 18 months. He can only make up for them by going out there and being a contributor to the team’s victory each day.

I also wanted to talk to you about two seniors – Rohit and Virat. They are both of course pillars of the team and everyone knows just how valuable they both are. Virat of course had another absolutely fantastic IPL this time. There was however some talk after the last T20 World Cup in Australia that these two players, of their own volition, might want to choose to not play T20 internationals, also because the talent pool is such a large one….

This World Cup has come so quickly after the 50-over World Cup. If these two were not supposed to be part of the 2024 World Cup, then the selectors should have planned it such that after the 2022 World Cup, no T20s will be played by these two. Now, in that period there was an injury to Rishabh Pant, there is a lack of consistency with Hardik Pandya, there was an injury to Suryakumar Yadav. So, for an Indian team selector who came in after 2022 (Agarkar took over as Chief Selector in July 2023), to say that we will go with these players (Pant, Hardik, Surya) for the future – there was no certainty who was going to captain. So, with Surya unfit since December, Hardik not being on the park since 2023 October, who is going to lead India in June (2024)? From November (2023), when the Indian team finished the final of the (ODI) World Cup, till March, (the selectors were clear that) Rohit is going to be our leader, knowing very well that he is not going to be captain of the Mumbai Indians, they announced it because of the fact that there was no certainty whether Surya or Hardik would be fit to be captain. So, once your (potential) captain is not fit, how can you plan your team? And then there’s no time between November and June to say that Shubman (Gill) and Yashasvi (Jaiswal) are your openers or Ruturaj (Gaikwad) is your opener. I mentioned Ruturaj here because I feel that he is another quality player. Each time he has been picked to play for India he has become unwell or he’s not scored and he hasn’t stamped his authority like he has done at CSK. And Virat has walked in (to the India T20 World Cup team) with great honours, straightway. And just look at the consistency of the man (Virat Kohli). From 2008 when he made his India debut till now, the game has changed every season and he has changed with those changing times and is still scoring runs. How many people in world cricket have actually been that consistent?  Very few – you can count them on your fingers. We give Virat Kohli less credit for the kind of consistency he has shown. You can’t just say – ‘oh, he’s not good’. It’s very easy to demean somebody, but is there somebody who has (managed to) replace him (Virat)? So, you have to give it to the man. He has been ahead of the curve most of the time. Just because he is a followed man, more people speak about him and he’s out there for people to like or dislike him. But we know as cricketers that it’s not easy to score runs every day, but he does that. These two players (Virat and Rohit) are so talented, it’s not easy to say – we don’t need them. In our lifetime we have seen MS (Dhoni) decide on his own, Sachin (Tendulkar). Both of them decided (when) to call it quits, so these two players (Virat and Rohit) also have the right to decide that they will not play a certain format, But, it’s difficult for them to take a decision as well because there is an IPL. Why would anybody not want to play the IPL? Some things don’t need to be talked about in public, they can just be discussed behind closed doors.

They will decide for themselves, so no one can tell them that you will not play the next T20 World Cup…

You can tell them, because they are both from a generation where clarity and openness are the way to go. It is (however), a very difficult conversation to have with a cricketer. I have been through it myself. I was always one of those people who expected openness. But from whom? Who is coming and speaking to you, what is the credential of that person, what is the intention of that person. You don’t want an episode like 2021, what happened with Virat Kohli to be repeated. Sensitive subjects need to be handled with kid gloves and it has to go right. If it hasn’t gone right, it’s gone wrong. There’s no middle path.

Virat is no longer captain, so the discussion about whether or not he should be in the team depends entirely on his batting prowess at the time. And there’s no stopping Virat Kohli when it comes to scoring runs. He is also super fit. Throughout his career, regardless of format, he has been a prolific run-getter, he’s just had another phenomenal IPL, where his team again couldn’t go all the way, but he still finished as the orange cap holder. But when you talk about Rohit Sharma, it’s a two-fold discussion. There is Rohit the captain and Rohit the batsman. So, even if his T20 batting form dips, there’s the captaincy angle. Like you mentioned – is the next captain ready? If the answer is no, Rohit walks into the team, regardless…

Certainly. Putting him (Rohit’s name) out there gives the whole world surety. You’ve put the compass down and said – from here we will draw the circle. At least that point is identified. So, that (staying with Rohit as captain) was a good move by the Board I felt because neither Hardik, nor Surya, nor Rishabh – no one (potential captain) was around.

Talking about Hardik, he didn’t enjoy the best of forms as both player and captain in this season of the IPL, but he is making quite an impact in the ongoing T20 World Cup in the small India match sample size that we have seen so far in the tournament. He is also the vice-captain. Going by what we have seen so far of Hardik, do you think he has put the memories of IPL behind him. There’s so much talk around him anyway…

What’s probably happening in his personal life, when did it all start? It affects human beings. Did these things happen at the same time as the inconsistencies with the bat etc. – then it was of course a very tough period. But that is in the past – now attention is not on Hardik. They are away from the country and for him particularly, if he is going through so much, it’s actually nice that he is out of the country. It’s nice that he is away. They are playing a tournament of a magnitude where there is no coming back. They have to stay focussed, they have to be in form. So, you think of nothing else but about how you can contribute. You go hit balls, you bowl, you take catches and you are there. The uniform is different, the vibe is different, the people who you see around you are different. There will be no booing. This will probably help Hardik. Again, this is my own personal opinion. It can take just one pebble to put a crack in the glass, irrespective of how strong the glass is. But if you are not treating yourself as glass, but as a wall, then you can actually walk the distance. When you go out there you realise that there is no harness. If you fall here, you fall down. And that’s when a player gets into a zone. Everyone’s zone is different. What I saw of him in the warm-up match vs Bangladesh was a more composed and relaxed Hardik, as a batter. If his batting leads his bowling, it’s fine. If his bowling leads his batting, it’s fine. One thing has to succeed for him for him to say – I’m good, I’m back. What also matters is who is around him. Who is around Hardik? We don’t know. Who is around you to help you come out of it also matters, because it is a lonely sport.

Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is the possibility of Gautam Gambhir becoming the next India Head Coach. Would you say that there is a chance that Gautam himself started thinking about a full-time coaching position after the offer was made? Most reports after all said that the BCCI approached him for the post of Head Coach…

Yes, absolutely.  There have been occasions where I have been approached. Why go far? Even for commentary. I was asked – ‘do you want to be on a channel and do a programme?’ ‘Can you host?’ – ‘ok, so today you are the host’. Suddenly you are thrown into a deep ocean and you have to understand that all these years that you have watched TV – this is what a host does.  Suddenly that feeling of being a host comes into you, even if you are not prepped for it, because somewhere down the line you watched it (TV sport programmes). So, it’s also possible that he (Gautam Gambhir) started thinking about it (India Men’s team Head Coach job) after he was approached. Whether he takes it up, how does the present team react to it – it’s very different from being a mentor. Coaching is very different. That’s how I see it. I have been a mentor, I have been a selector. A coaching job is a full-time profession.

Ok, going back to the ongoing T20 World Cup now and the stock question that every expert is asked – If you had to pick say three genuine title contenders for this tournament, who would they be? 

India, obviously. But I do feel that England is a very good team. Because of Australia’s consistency, you have to talk about Australia. Not too sure how South Africa will come out. If I have to pick three, I would say – England, Australia, India. Also, let’s keep a watch on the West Indies, let’s not discount them. The only negative for them is that they haven’t done well consistently in the past. So, do they have it in them to take it all the way?

Alright, let’s talk about one of the big marquee clashes of the tournament – India vs Pakistan. This time it will be India vs Pakistan in New York – something I never thought I would be saying as one sentence. These are drop-in pitches. If we go by what we have seen so far, batting hasn’t been very easy, bounce has been spongy and uneven. Your prediction for India vs Pakistan with New York being factored in…   

Pakistan hasn’t shaped up that well coming into this World Cup. They have won at home, they have had a shocker in England, but then again, England and New York are two different things. Pitches are drop-in pitches, also what about the outfield? More importantly, going into this World Cup, I feel India are a much stronger team than Pakistan. It’s not going to be very easy for Pakistan in this  World Cup. They have not shown that kind of form, going into the World Cup. Even when they go to the Super Eights (if Pakistan qualify), they will be facing teams which will not be easy. It’s not easy for India, how will it be easy for Pakistan?

Whenever India goes for a big ICC tournament, there is of course that weight of expectations of winning the trophy and ending a long wait for an ICC trophy. But these days there is also some talk about what will happen if they don’t win. How do cricketers think when they go into a tournament like this one? It would of course be bizarre to think that the cricketers are thinking of the backlash that they could potentially face if they don’t win, right?

They don’t carry the weight of a loss, because thoughts of a loss don’t even stray anywhere near the dressing room. But when the team loses, it hits the players. But it doesn’t hit them like – oh, we lost another tournament’. It hits them with the thought – ‘Now what?’. Heartbreak. It’s not just for India, it’s for so many teams. Australia are so consistent, but even they are wary. They also have the pressure to remain consistent. But there is never this thought in the dressing room that – ‘if we lose, what is going to be the backlash?’ This thought is only there when you are playing Pakistan. And that thought it also there till the time the match starts. Once you get in, the pressure is there and you know how to handle that pressure. But, when you go in for a knock-out game, like a semi-final or a quarter-final, then you feel like ‘Boss, now what?’. The challenge with the Indian team is that they have been in a final also (2023 ODI World Cup) at home, very recently (India lost to Australia in the final by 6 wickets) and that heartbreak moment will be there with most of these players. If they get to the final, those memories might come back, but for them to get to the final (of the 2024 T20 World Cup), there is a long road first, so there won’t really be that much baggage. For a cricketing nation like ours we also probably realise that November 2023 (2023 ODI World Cup) was the best chance to win a World Cup. That was the best, on a platter opportunity of winning a World Cup, which didn’t happen. No one thinks of a loss….it’s about taking it one day at a time and all these players are so vastly experienced that they can have that outlook – one day at a time, one game at a time. They have been part of so many important moments, that they will know how to handle themselves. And the level they play at, the important moments keep coming. That is where the help from Virat (Kohli) and Rohit (Sharma), Jasprit Bumrah, (Ravindra) Jadeja will come through.

Indian cricketers also are the most talked about. Cricketers who are put under the most amount of focus, globally…

There are always phases. When we won the 2011 (ODI) World Cup, it was all about (winning it for) Sachin (Tendulkar).  We are now in 2024 and we have got here so fast, so many things have happened. 2011 Virat (Kohli) was a youngster playing his very first World Cup, Rohit (Sharma) wasn’t a part of the team. Now we are talking about these two greats of the game maybe playing their last T20 World Cup, so it’s (the time) gone by so quickly that for everyone sitting in that dressing room in their corner they will be thinking (different things). Yashasvi (Jaiswal) must be thinking – ‘When will I play my first game?’ Rohit will be thinking – ‘Now or never’, Virat might be thinking ‘Will this be my last T20 (World Cup), it might not be. I don’t want to think like that, but I want to go out on a high’. So, heart of hearts, everyone in their respective corners will be thinking – ‘when I go out there, I must make a strong impression. So, there’s a battle within a battle. There’s a battle that is outside and also a discussion that is within you as a player. We never talk about it, but everyone comes out with a different purpose. Hardik (Pandya) will have a different purpose, Surya will have a different purpose. All those purposes will obviously go towards winning the match and winning the World Cup, but what about your own battle about making it count. How do you get to that position where you can make it count? So, that, within the dressing room, for an Indian team is massive….This is where ICC tournaments become that driving force. It’s not like bilateral (series) or IPL are not, they are, but ICC events are always remembered, always talked about. That is why these events become so important.