Prime Time debate: Nobody likes Von der Leyen and four other takeaways from European election special

It was all very civilised

After the periodic mayhem of the Midlands North West RTÉ debate, last night’s Ireland South election debate was relatively low key with the only real verbal skirmishes occurring towards the end.

Initially the two-presenter format looked a bit strange, but Fran McNulty and Miriam O’Callaghan segued well and kept the reins tight on the four key themes – migration, agriculture, neutrality, and the final busking section where each candidate was asked a hard question.

All of the eight acquitted themselves well enough, which is also saying something, but none shot the lights out. The most consistent – and possibly the most effective of the eight – may have been Labour candidate Niamh Hourican who managed to be both punchy and charming in her contributions.

Most disagreements were around nuance

On migration, Independent candidate Michael McNamara was the most in favour of curbs, but it did not mean there was much clear blue water between him and the rest. He wanted an end to delays in processing and a more efficient system.

Against that, he said Ireland should have a more generous visa permits system which – in a stroke – removed any label of anti-migrant.

None of the candidates were fully comfortable with the EU asylum pact. Several pointed to the detention centres planned for EU countries and non-EU countries such as Egypt and Tunisia.

Sinn Féin’s Paul Gavan drew a graphic picture of a detention centre in Hungary where children were kept in a cage and not let out for a six-month period.

Lorna Bogue of Rabharta said the pact was a “hodge podge” and would be using countries that were external to the EU as detention centres, drawing comparisons with the UK’s use of Rwanda.

Mick Wallace, wearing his customary pink T-shirt, said it was a pushback treaty of the kind that leads to the drowning of thousands of people in the Mediterranean.

Bogue and Wallace opposed it. McNamara and Hourican supported aspects of it, as did Gavan. The Government MEPs Billy Kelleher of Fianna Fáil and John Mullins supported it albeit with reservations.

Grace O’Sullivan was left more in a bind. She admitted she had grave concerns on some aspects, especially that EU money would pay countries like Egypt to handle migration. But it was put to her the Government of which the Green Party was a member would support it.

She replied: “I will be the wasp in Eamon Ryan’s and Roderic O’Gorman’s ears to make sure we have a humanitarian approach.”

It’s an uncomfortable place to be.

Some candidates needed fact-checking on nitrates

South has much of Ireland’s agricultural heartland, and it was no surprise farming featured heavily. It was the Greens versus the rest, with a twist. The questions cycled through nitrates, herd culling and the EU Nature Restoration Law.

Grace O’Sullivan had her best moment here. She lifted a vial of water from her own home tap that she said contained nitrates. She argued Ireland was the last county in the EU to keep the derogation. “There are nitrates in my water. I don’t want my water contaminated.”

She said she would only support the nitrates derogation (which is mainly used by intensive-dairy farmers) if farmers could show they do not pollute the water. Good answer.

There was magical thinking from some candidates on that score. Kelleher said it would be possible to maintain output while introducing measures that would impact positively on water quality.

He argued that 7,400 farmers would be affected if the derogation was not granted. “You are not just culling cattle, it would also cull farms and it would cull families.” Best soundbite of the night.

Others questioned the basis for testing water for nitrates. Not enough was being done, said Mullins. “There is a lazy assumption that dairy farmers are causing it,” declared McNamara.

Not a lazy assumption at all. Dr Eimear Cotter, director of the EPA’s Office of Evidence and Assessment, said “its assessment was based on specific criteria set by the commission under a 2022 Commission Implementing Decision”.

She said the most recent assessments show only 54 per cent of surface waters – rivers, lakes and estuaries – were in a satisfactory condition, “which means that a large number are not in good ecological health”. She said “the picture for our estuaries is even more stark with only 36 per cent in satisfactory ecological condition”.

And the cause? Dr Cotter said agricultural activity was one of the main sources of nutrient losses to water in Ireland and was a significant pressure on about 1,000 water bodies. “As well as being too high, nitrogen levels in groundwaters, rivers and estuaries have increased over the last 10 years since their lowest point in 2012-2013,” she said.

So, that’s definite then. Farming has nothing to do with it.

Nobody likes Ursula von der Leyen

Billy Kelleher said straight out he would not vote for Ursula von der Leyen if she was nominated for a second term as EU Commission president. It could put him at odds with the Government. Paul Gavan tried to call him out on that, but Kelleher insisted he would vote against her.

The debate on foreign policy, neutrality and the triple lock divided along party lines. Gavan, Bogue and Hourigan opposed any changes to neutrality. Hourigan reminded people the guarantee on the lock was central to the Nice and Lisbon treaties.

Miriam O’Callaghan asked the candidates what they would do if another European country was invaded. Hourican said that Nato existed for any member state that feared invasion (a bit of a side-dodge there because if Nato is the answer, the question might be, how do you guarantee placing yourself under the direct influence of US foreign policy?).

Bogue did not believe any other EU state was under immediate threat. Her point was: “I think it is not correct as a sovereign State to change international policy every time there is a conflict in the world.”

The Government candidates favoured a change. O’Sullivan said the triple lock was not functioning. She said if the Arab League asked Irish peacekeepers into Gaza, they could not go if the United States blocked the mission.

Asked why he was one of 13 MEPs (alongside Clare Daly) out of 705 who voted against a parliament resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Wallace insisted he had condemned the Russian invasion but could not support the resolution because it proposed flooding Ukraine with weapons. Putin should be held to account he said but in the same breath said he wanted the United States held to account. All sort of ambivalent.

He finished with a harsh double barb at Fine Gael and von der Leyen.

“A vote for Fine Gael is a vote for Ursula von der Leyen who is a warmonger and a nasty piece of work.”

No ambivalence there. Whatsoever.

Mick Wallace does not like The Irish Times

The final round asked candidates personal questions. Wallace was asked did he regret that he has been perceived as pro Russian.

Strangely, his answer was to have a cut at this newspaper. “We have no regrets about speaking the truth. We have spoken the truth from day one. There’s no point getting the news from the mainstream. Don’t read The Irish Times, check what we are saying and doing in the parliament itself.”

Ouch.

And while you are at it, especially don’t read any of the many excellent investigations by Naomi O’Leary into Wallace and Daly and their rather unusual worldview.

The interviewers hit a bit of bum note with Billy Kelleher. There were rumours, said O’Callaghan, that he was opposed to Cynthia Ní Mhurchú being the second name on the ticket. He batted it away effortlessly. Rumours? Rumours? Not true. Always going to be two candidates. Constituency split geographically. Nothing to see here.

Paul Gavan was asked if Sinn Féin was the party of flip-flops given its big pivots on nature restoration and migration? His reply was to an unasked question as he condemned Kelleher, Mullin and McNamara for being right-wing politicians.

That prompted the only real verbals of the night when McNamara came in quickly to challenge that description. When Gavan claimed McNamara had supported Irish Water and water charges, McNamara responded forcibly that he never voted for Irish Water and never voted for water charges. Another moment for fact checkers.

John Mullin was asked the hardly embarrassing question of having a potential conflict of interest in the parliament because he was a renewable energy entrepreneur. He was walking away from the business, was his reply. That was that. Until Miriam told him that he was a bit under time-wise. So she asked the same question again, and he gave the same answer.

The overall takeaway was we learned a little at least about where the candidates stand on the key issues that will define this election.